freedom coalition on why evangelical christians should support president trump and former defense secretary since end of world war ii parties join in conversation by former defense secretary james mattis or consult your program guide. : : it's my honor to welcome you to what i i believe will be a very provocative discussion about a compelling new book "how to educate an american: the conservative vision for tomorrow's schools" published by templeton press. we're joined today by a

fantastic group of panelists beginning with mike petrilli and chester finn. "how to educate an american" was brainchild of mike and chester and today they will share with us their original inspiration behind the book and why it seems the more important now to revitalize k-12 civic education. joining us today is david bobb come present of the bill of rights institute. david has worked for 20 years to build strong civic education programs that engage the hearts and minds of young people. previously david worked at hillsdale college and is the author of a book on the vital role of humility in politics. welcome, david. also joining us is jonah goldberg, the chair and applied liberty of the american enterprise institute and the editor-in-chief of dispatch, unlike me he has authored the chapter in "how to educate an

american." finally sarah morgan smith director faculty at the sender which seeks to restore and strengthen the capacity of the american people for constitutional self-government. thank you all for joining. to make quick housekeeping is. we will be doing a q&a so submit questions in one of two ways. either you can e-mail or submit questions to the hashtag educating americans aei. second note is this webinar will be posted on both the aei and affordable websites and am pleased to share that c-span booktv's website will also air the discussion. it's fit to say the world has changed quite dramatically since mike and chester first concede tonight.

as mike to ensure they wanted gather a group of scholars to provide a continuum of ideas that would reinvigorate conservative thought and education and ensure that people would value the nation's history, understand government and cherish its founding ideals. but then what i described as two mac earthquakes and a trimmer occurred. the first earthquake is of course the covid-19 pandemic. and then some who runs a network that is in its third month of distance learning for 2000 students and now we are doing massive amounts of scenario planning for what schools look like in the fall, one thing that is certain is that instructional delivery in k-12 education is going to look radically different. what has been less discussed is more than anecdotal evidence suggesting that children who enter the pandemic embedded in strong married families are much more likely be protected from

financial and emotional stress. how will that fact change urgency of what we teach young people about the importance of building strong families and strong civil society in a post covert world? the second earthquake as i describe it is the "new york times" 1619 project. if you're not thinly with 601980s the "new york times" attempt to place slavery at the center of our national narrative in the year 1619 as the true fan and an american not be your 1776. the revisions history at 1619 has widely been discredited by historians on both the left and the right and its premises been challenged by scholars and activists led by bob woodson who is one of the 1776 project. but despite this opposition that 1619 project lead author won the pulitzer which will likely only accelerate distribution of a

1619 curriculum which is already in thousands of urban schools ensuring that primarily low income kids of color up with an understanding of american history that says the countries founding ideals were quote, false, , when the written and tt quote, antiblack racism runs in the very dna of this country. how do we focus on civic education when that is a growing movement in urban schools? beyond these earthquakes is what i call the trimmer, a periodic disruption that reminds us of the crisis that exist in america. new results nation report card has release revealing the percentage of eighth grade students who demonstrated proficiency in content knowledge and skills was just 24% in civic, 25% in geography, and 15% in u.s. history.

at an history only 10% of eighth graders can explain why the south lost the civil war. unfortunately these numbers are nothing new and these rumblings have been repeated for years. so with that friendly of the challenges comes how to educate america. the lead editor will kick us off. mike, given how the landscape has changed, how has the relevance of how to educate an american changed or even then enhanced? >> thank you so much, ian. i appreciate that. first of all for hosting and monitoring today but a special brother great work that you and your colleagues are doing for the boys and girls on young men and young women in your schools in new york city. thank you to the american enterprise institute for hosting this. it was supposed to be a light event once upon a time. covid made that impossible but we appreciate forging ahead with this webinar. we understand there are many hundreds of you out there watching and we appreciate your time as well.

winchester and i launched the project more than two years ago, we did so from a place of frustration. that's because a national education reform movement that roared across america after our nation at risk felt like it had run out of steam. while reform efforts still go on, they appear almost as often. it's a diversion of the stagnation that ross writes about in his new book in decadent society. we felt stuck. there have been some nontrivial successes, standards and expectations are higher almost february and the used to be. she been has risen a bit at least in the earlier come mostly in math and especially for the lowest performers. some learning gaps have narrowed and the opportunities are wider. millions more offensive options for the children's education as it is no longer taken for granted that students will attend the district operating a public schools closest to those. those all things to celebrate.

many of these reforms driving ideas work conservative in origin although making them happen typically entail bipartisanship and compromise. as democrats and republicans, mostly centerleft and center-right found common ground in pursuit of big changes, in the deeply entrenched education system that was not successfully serving many of the children or society which they lived. as we all know bipartisanship is in tatters today in many realms of our national life and that's a big problem on countless fronts. yet as eve on level -- the gains made possible through bipartisanship also been suppressing important differences and neglecting some vital elements in schooling in particular an education in general. it seemed like time to linking to these differences to highlight what's been neglected, lost or distorted, and address

troubling education for instance, if we can renegotiate terms before the next wave of bipartisan reform. so that was the purpose of "how to educate an american." and it almost two dozen right-leaning public intellectuals and scholars responded to our request to up us quote address the questions about where america finds itself at this moment in history, where we are going, where we should go and the roles of primary, secondary education in taking us there. as should be expected from this incredible group of creative thinkers, they also often many directions and yet their separate musings turned out revolve around a few key themes here one revolved around good character that include moral education, properly construed it also the critical work of helping young people find purpose in feel needed, the benefits of asking students to work hard and are studies in beyond and be contrary -- the

reforms that reinforce the soft bigotry of low expectations around student behavior. the second big theme urged a view of what comes after elementary and secondary education. many of the authors argued college may not be the only pathway to dignity or the middle class and the key goal of our school should be to inform teenagers about the success secrets and encourage them to w it. as we know the sequence is different in school, to get a full-time job, to get married and to start a family in that order. as ian i'm sure will say a little bit later, ian in this chapter writes a lot about the success sequence and the broader issues of family structure. finally, the third theme is what we will be discussed and it is important to rekindling students understanding of american history, civics and citizenship including the kind that informs love of country.

that was the focus of joan is fantastic chapter about irradiating the past, which will hear more in a moment. it was also the subject of eliot cohen is wonderful as a unpatriotic history, the history that is both all-american and also critical of the many ways our beloved nation has fallen short of its ideals. it was the themes will by chapter by adam of the philanthropy roundtable about how donors can promote an excellent engaging version of civic education without relying solely on public institutions. and it was a big part of the concluding chapter by former education secretary william bennett expressing his concern that more than three decades after don hursh warned us about cultural illiteracy, we still failed to teach her youngest goods history and geography, science and the arts, all important in the own right but also sent it where ever to win the war against illiteracy.

what all these nc-7, in my view is a broad agreement around the problem even if you remain flummoxed about how to respond. the problem still the put is that the academic left has embraced revisionist history as a means to attack america's history, and especially its founding as inherently unjust and even racist. this version of history jump the shark from colleges and universities to high schools, especially the textbook like people sisters of the united states, recently the 16th 19 project. this in turn has politicized our k-12 history classes there stretches of history was taught perfectly in the past way back when our schools were surely to be good to go after the coaches failed and too often did so with the boring lectures to boot. but the challenge cannot be ignored. those who lead and teach in our schools have to choose how to respond.

i suspect much of our discussion today will focus on the question of the right response. some conservatives may dream of eradicating the light from our schools, returning to an unabashedly patriotic version of history focus on great man and worse one, and perhaps my actual happen to some extent in deep red america, or in conservative private and charter schools. a version of the benedict option. is that the best solution to accept the sum american kids will be taught red american history while others will learn blue american history? is a a way to teach a red and e even purple history and understand and appreciation of our past? that in elliotts for malicious both patriotic and critical without aborting a a competent controversies which would make history even more boring and i'm engaging for our teenagers? that's the challenge the nation's educator space and a hope today we might give them some hope that it can be met. thank you.

>> michael, thank you for that great introduction and framing. now we're going here from david bobb, president of the bill of rights institute. thank you for joining us, and please share your thoughts. >> thank you very much, ian, and thank you mike for the excellent framing and for you and checker putting this outstanding volume of essays and reflections together. in 2015 the south korean government set in motion a plan by which a new book was unveiled, the correct textbook of history was its title. now mind you that was south korea, not north korea. it was design to remedy the perceived flaws of other textbooks. this resource has the interlocutor of the government. it was a regime sanctioned textbook. you might be thinking, isn't it great we don't do that in the united states? and it's true we do not have

official textbooks issued by the united states federal government. what we do have it assist in which the decision-making authority at the state level is lodged largely with the bureaucrats who are choosing textbooks created by a handful of the largest publishers. and what we've done in essence is create a kind of cartel. this cartel has produced textbooks that manage it that wants to be ideologically barred and boring. they don't reflect the viewpoints of diversity that many teachers desire. here's the good news. teachers are more entrepreneurial than the system in many cases. take for example, what the digital company news ella discovered. administrators say that teachers are using textbooks about half the time, about half the days in which who is in session. this was pre-covid, conducted precode. what teachers say is that the using their official sanctioned

textbooks about one out of five days. now, i think that's a good thing, and the several contributors point out in "how to educate an american" we need to do more to help districts,, charter, private and homeschooling teachers, parents, have ready access to viewpoint diverse resources. these resources need to challenge students on how it is that they can become thoughtful, patriotic citizen. robbie george in particular makes a powerful case that viewpoint diversity should be a public and private good at it must also be a foundation of which we build a sound civic education. this part of the solution in particular suggests that the subtitle of the book, the conservative vision for tomorrow's schools, but will be amended to a vision for tomorrow's schools for all americans. in other words, sound civic education is neither conservative nor progressive, neither left nor right. it does not push a political

agenda by that does the noble our policy. civics teachers and students young and old, the vibrancy of civil society. civics is also in this capable. whether or not -- inescapable. whether there's a course called civics or secondary school students, , they are constantly forming for good or ill, viewpoint on american ideas and institutions. for most young americans that worldview is -- [inaudible] sound civics as eliot cohen forcefully argues in the essay of this book should be patriotic. he admits at the end of this essay but does not explore as much as i would've liked that patriotic history needs guardrails to ensure that it doesn't feed ideological narratives like the lost cause idea relating to the civil war. call with advances what might be called -- on civic and history

education. let me just summarize it using his words. i quote without civics our political institutions are reduced to valueless mechanisms. without history, there is no civic education. without civic education there are no citizens without citizens there is no free republic. i endorse this line of argument and greatly appreciate the reminder that civics and history as well as philosophy in every other humane inquiry must be grounded in humility. our task is not managed to have another time of limitation about needs scores rather to take up the task of supporting teachers, parents administrators need to recognize that it is a hard task to be viewpoint diverse and i believe having seen this for the last six years at the bill of rights institute that many of our teachers and social studies community are very much in favor of and indeed do every day of

viewpoint diverse presentation of civics and history. there are resources that we agreed at the bill of rights institute that seek to be part of the solution. i just want to mention a couple of them before turning my time over. the website has hundreds, affect thousands of different resources that teachers can choose from to support their work. these are on topics that relate to things that often are really hard subjects, for example, how do we balance liberty in security? hadley talk about in the plural wife religious liberty? how do we understand immigration? how do we note and celebrate those remarkable accomplishments done in the spirit of the declaration of independence like the 19th amendment? as the next slide shows us a lot of things that can be done to directly engage students. they just got done, for example,

millions of students taking advanced basement exams. with seminars and webinars that engage the student with those ideas and a rich conversation, and on july six the bill of rights institute release a publication called life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and history of the american experiment. it employs 100 leading academic historians who agree on virtually nothing to debate point counterpoint all of the key questions of history. in so doing, students were invited to a conversation, our rich cons active conversation that spent decades and centuries of debate and dialogue and we think the outcome of that kind of thing is the sound civics that this book rightfully points us in the direction of. thanks so much. >> david, thank you so much. i think the points, , viewpoint diversity and the fact that

history is neither conservative nor liberal, those tremendously resonate, and checker, david recommend a different subtitle for the book. not that there's necessarily conservative vision but a vision for all children. are you ready to change the subtitle? >> as soon as the press is ready to publish the second edition with 80,000 copies this time, because of the man that the show is generating. yes, , let's change of the subtitle. >> excellent. checker, now is your time to share your reflection. mike gave us a bit of the origin story, but what was your hope when you decided to create this? >> we have a number of hopes having to do with creating education reform and re-engaging people on the right in education reform conversation and efforts, believing as ian and i both took

him that while we are staunch supporters of school choice, sometimes when conservatives think about education reform they focus only on choice and ignore all of the other things that were involved in that, with quality education, poverty choices, with kids who don't make choices, with q2 don't have parents to make choices for them, and with a whole variety of other things. we felt a much broader brush was due to go at the future education reform issues. and the book has 18 chapters and spans a bunch of topics from gifted education the family structure, the student engagement and student efforts and so on. but we didn't want to talk primarily today about the civics and history elements of the book, which is much of it as mike said and is a major theme around which many of the authors often congregate. i have been a history warrior i

guess since i was a history major back in the late middle ages in college. and have also despaired, i will say, over the decades at fordham and elsewhere about the perilous state of social studies education in american schools. and social studies is typically what both history and civics are embedded in in american schools, and it's often kind of a mishmash actually in the elementary, middle grades, and then high school typically consigned to a single years course in u.s. history and a half year or when your course come sometimes it's called civics and sometimes it's called american government. when i was a teacher who was called problems of american democracy, course which incidentally in new england public high school at no curriculum whatsoever. the teacher was told to go to

the book room and find stuff kids should read that might illustrate some problems, whatever they might be. that was the state of the curriculum back then. one of the things david has usefully done is illustrate the extent and variety and quality of many of the materials currently available in the modern world for educators who want them and know what they are doing. and are enabled within their schools or school system to use this stuff. we are no longer textbook dependent are least we don't have to be. there is a wealth of material there, but it's frustrating by some kind of endemic problems in social studies education. one of which is frankly poorly trained teachers in many cases who are assigned to teach social

studies but never studied much of it himself. i grew up in the schools were only estimated 15% of kids are proficient in history on the eighth grade level. a lot of today's teachers were, to put it bluntly, in the other 85% when they were in eighth grade and it didn't necessarily get to them as it made away to college and prep school. additional problem is that state policy, while it requires social studies, usually doesn't make it part of the state accountability system. usually it doesn't matter for a schools rating from the state with the kids are learning social studies. often it doesn't matter other than the teachers grade whether they pass a a social studies course in order to graduate. often there's nothing like an

end of course assessment by which the state will have an extra check and whether any of the actions were learned. often times this has left the districts to work out. i'm glad there's no national studies i can social studies curriculum. i do what he likes off greek but it is this case the states are responsible for seeing our kids get educated. and in today's america not more than any time in my memory that needs wanting kids to grow up to be confident citizens, a united states of america. for that to happen, civics and history education at just got to be part of the fabric. they are intertwined. they should be intertwined. they are certainly intertwined in the case eight social studies framework or standards of most states -- k8. were doing it dreadful job of both of them as evidence by the

results. but it's not impossible, i remember just a few years ago of a college or was overhauling its advanced placement framework for u.s. history, and in so doing they first went into a kind of bullish framework for the u.s. history framework and then people call them on it and they said to their credit, let's go back and fix it. the history framework right now is by common contents consent h almost no more critics a nicely balanced, not just you point the verse versailles would go farther than that and say there is a kind of a solid core to it that basically everybody recognizes are important concepts and skills and knowledge for kids to acquire as they study u.s. history. we are talking about a a

nontrivial number of kids, hundreds of thousands of high school kids every year take a view of u.s. history. i'm offering it right now merely as an example of of the fact it is possible to do this as well, and that if our schools and districts and states set out to do it well, and incidentally also made it count which they make it count for those kids, i think we could be doing a better job of preparing future citizens of the united states then we are doing today. thank you very much, and i am delighted to turn it back to you, ian. >> checker, thank you for that. i share your belief that the should be a national social studies curriculum that should be mandated by the government, but maybe there should be mandate that one does exist and is required state-by-state. jonah, you wrote a great piece of that used james bond as a

vehicle through which to talk about irradiating the past. tell us about your reflections on the past. >> sure. and all the requisite thank yous, and i'm honored to be here and all that. which of the benefit of being true. i borrowed from the movie goldfinger, the james bond movie, just to make the point that in the movie, the villains play it is not rob fort knox which is what the audience is legibly in the beginning. what he actually intends to do is detonate a small dirty bomb inside fort knox, irradiating all of the gold, to make it useless for generations to come, thereby making his own stockpile of gold infinitely more valuable. and i use as a metaphor for the way the sort of howard is in

left and others and now the 1619 project, their approach to american history is to basically talks up by everything that is on the good side of the ledger in american history so that the only history that is left is one tale of victimization and woe and bigotry, at that these things never shrink in the rearview mirror of history. they become a permanent problem with america that is never gotten better. my own view and all this, i like that checker brought up school choice only. i in favor of school choice as well. i have school choice. i send my daughter to a private school. most of my friends in d.c. center kids to private school. this problem i'm describing is probably worse in the schools

and it is in the public schools because at least somewhere in the chain there's a politician who was worried they might get in trouble if they teach something terrible in public school. but the people listen to kids to private schools they want the kids to be taught all of the social justice that will get them into an ivy league school and being able to talk about the permanent stain of slavery and all these kinds of things is a feature, not a bug. my own view is that much like eliot cohen, i think there is such a thing as a patriotic version of history. the word patriotic probably needs to go though. much like the word conservative needs to go because it is just bad branding though there's nothing wrong with them. my own view borrowed in large part from you eufaula van is tt conservatives really is, religious boils down to gratitude. when you strip it of its epistemological and its partisan and his philosophical priors, it boils down to the idea that what

other things that you find lovely and lovable about the society that you live in, the world that you live in cuts you want to preserve and pass on to your children? this was an edmund burke contract between the living, , e dead come in the unborn. there's a story to tell about america that does that, and you have to teach the howard zinn stuff. you have to teach the slave in trail of tears, because in part if you don't teach that you cannot teach the story of the improvement of this country towards a more perfect union. i very much want to teach -- the first data teaches that slavery was evil, a moral evil. you can point out it exist in lots of places, one of the remarkable things about the west is that we get rid of it. it was -- second to it being equal, it was profoundly hypocritical for a new nation

born under the proposition that we are all equal in the eyes of god and should therefore be equal in the eyes of government to have institution like slavery. no, no hypocrisy for slain to have slavery but there's a profound hypocrisy on a country founded by the patriotic ideals that we have. but the great thing about hypocrisy is you can only be hypocritical if you have principles. hypocrisy illuminates the principles that this country was founded on and it also illuminates the best version of ourselves. so there's a wonderful story to tell not about 1619 which as far as i can tell is just shoddy propagandistic history. doesn't mean everything in it is wrong but the contextualization of it is by my life ludicrous. the ideas that the american founding, the american evolutionary or was fought to protect slavery is just that

crazy. you want to teach all the bad stuff and teach the story of the unfolding realization of the principles that make this country exceptional, that make this country place we should be grateful to live in, a place where we can understand that illuminates the sacrifices and the shortcomings of the generations that came before us in a way that is honest and soul-searching. i think if you can get that into the curriculum, a lot of the civic stuff would sort itself out. the viewpoint diversity point i will just close on this, my real job is in journalism, not this stuff. my view is some of the best journalism in america is opinion journalism because you know where the author is coming from, and to this opinion journalism is like an argument in in a cot of law. we all know that the prosecution is biased against the defendant

and we all know the defense is biased in favor of the defendant. but each side has rules they must follow. they have to tell the truth. they have to marshal evidence at that do with the other sides rest arguments or they will lose. in viewpoint diversity should just be seen like that to me. different sides of a question that are presented honestly, that characterize the other side position fairly, and allow the students and the teachers to illuminate the various issues and context that make this a significant thing to understand in the first place. i think this book can help and all that. thanks again for having me. >> thank you. actually the center, your dumb phenomenal worker i've been watching several other webinars. tell us about some of the resources that you provided to address these issues around civic interviews here. >> absolute. i'm going to carry on with the things talked about the importance the viewpoint

diversity but i'm going to tweak it a little bit because what we do it ashbrook is to talk about tax, not textbooks. we are not interested in a patriotic history or howard zinn history or however you want to characterize those things. if that history is a project of historians filtering through and interpreting the past for students and teachers. what we do is we connect students and teachers at interested citizens with actual documents from the past. i am one of the coeditors of our core document collections. when it is that it was 45 individual volumes on different themes or focus on different time frames in our nation's pass. each of those volumes brings together some of between 25 and 40 documents that come from different people who actually lived through the things want to investigate. they can be letters, they could

be speeches but they are not just like the great men on the stage pushing history forward. they could be think some people who were down in the dirt and being affected by these policies and thinking through them. one thing over think is important when you talk about viewpoint diversity is is not just viewpoint diversity in our own time but it's understanding that there were multiple viewpoints at all times in america's past and we want to try to engage as many of those voices in the conversation as possible and to allow them to speak on their own without applying layer upon layer of loss. that's difficult. i'm a 17th century scholar by training so i know that words would look at today and say that the obvious meaning, didn't mean that in the 17th century and you can't just put a text in front of a disrespect them to know that. there there's some scaffolding t has to take place to get them to

see where the language is shifted over time or to dig into the nuance. but when you begin to do that work and what we do it ashbrook is we do teachers seven earth will bring the documents and the teachers in the room and sit around the square table and we do that work with them and model and engage them in the process so they can go back and do it with her students. when you do that work then you really can begin to think for yourself about the past and not to accept the interpretation of even the most eminent scholar. i think that's the real big key for me in thinking about this viewpoint diversity essay which the essay was great but i would like to thought about it more historically and chronologically as was in our current context. the other thing i would like to say about the volume of the committee picked this up in the q&a is so much of the focus of

this conversation has been on schooling as in students in the context of k-12 school. but education and learning and particularly civic learning takes place in many more environments than the four walls of the classroom. my own background before i started working with ashbrook was actually in museum education. so the lots of great public history sites covering all kinds of stories that would otherwise be forgotten or that would lack nuance because we don't have text to engage them but we do have these artifacts and we do have places where we can go and engage with the past in a tangible way. it would've been really interesting if somebody among the contributors have thought about what role do public history organizations or history museums have in this process? even beyond that especially as a think about school reform moving

forward in a post covid-19 world, how much do we need to send our students to school monday through friday versus allowing them to get out there and engage with other elements of society and to apprentice thin shells to wise and to gain practical skills about actually cooperating with other people or learning to apply some of these character traits that we want them to have instilled in them in their real lives. those are my thoughts on the book and i will leave the rest for q&a. >> sara, thank you for that. i think it's a great distinction, this idea of text versus textbooks. thank you for those comments. we are about to move into a discussion amongst ourselves as i mentioned earlier we will be doing q&a simply submit questions either directly by e-mail or submit questions to

hashtag educating americans aei. one question i i would like to throw out to the group is what is the real risk here? it's interesting, we've been living with civic education scores 15% of her kids understanding civics and history for a long time. what's the risk if we don't do what ashbrook does so well, which is not providing interpretations of history but actual texts that show the viewpoint diversity that exists at the time? what's the danger? is this just conservatives hyperventilating? i'll open it to anyone. what's the real risk year? >> the general risk is worsening as the policy of the country divides into echo chambers and

warring factions and other forms of service at the expense of the -- so able to tolerate 15% proficient in one thing if the country is holding together. the risk gets a lot worse if the country is in other ways coming apart, and so even agreements which tax discuss would be a pretty good start here. >> i think jonah really hit the nail on had when his talk about hypocrisy and the inborn educative purpose of hypocrisy. the rest of those low percentages is not the students don't know particular facts but that they don't know what the principles are that make them

say slavery was wrong and i should be mad about it. if you don't understand the moral truth that is in conflict with a regime of human ownership, then you have no real foundation for the kind of moral judgment that citizens need to make about contemporary problems either. once lost is a sense of ownership of a core set of political principles. >> i would second that. i think there is a challenge that the hyper polarization and the kind of hyper partisanship that we've seen present some come for students, they can come down to something very practical. practical. can i maintain a friendship with my friends and still disagree with them? and when you think on it at that level, the vitality that is what's at stake here is civic friendship.

the idea that we can disagree about certain things while still holding to those things that make us one. the definition but of what thoe are, sometimes it overcomplicate these things here what we try to do at the bill of rights institute is point people active decoration of independence of independence and constitution. it's amazing how many law students go through without reading those documents, let alone any of the federalists think of what is for a seventh grader to confront those and to do that without the intermediation of scholarly opinion weighing down on the person it to do is confront the text. i think the key thing that can emerge from the then our discussions and debate that don't have a particular and in mind immediately. the outcome of this process is something that is very good at sustaining of the republic but ultimately as i think this volume made very clear, think that is at stake is her future,

three. >> if someone wants to add to comment. first to david, when he confront the documents such as declaration of independence constitution deals and understand why people wrote those providing did. what was going on in the world? what was england doing that make people want to declare their independence from it? and i want to say this to sarah, that in addition to grasping the moral principles that slavery is wrong, it's also good if kids understand why in the 17th and 18th and 19th centuries, what with the economics as well as the views of the people to have slaves? it is one thing to say it is wrong and was wrong. another thing to say so why did it happen? >> i think it's important for us

though not to pretend like there was some golden age in the past where we were doing all of this really well. look, in much of american history people were not going through school much longer than maybe an eighth grade education. it was only until very recently that we have mass higher education and instill a sense that the country could come together and address great challenges. we have the sense today that everything is sort of splintering. we are all in her own little bubbles in terms of media, polarization, all of that. it's an fair to say schools are going to fix that. obviously, the people who are,, let's say, the baby boomers today, aber educator in the regiment way than generations ago and they're still part of the problem. it's not like they are behaving great when it comes to civics and citizenship and civics friendliness. we can't put this all on the schools, but because we are at a

place to help with are so few common experiences of that people have, there is not a draft anymore, there's not three network television stations we all watch. that school is one of those experiences that is more common us a try to get schools back to the place where they see preparing citizens, and a love that term, david. sort of the civic friendship, as a huge part of their mission. a lot of this in reform we have been talking about it. we have been obsessed with college and career. we've been obsessed with helping individuals find their way into the middle class and beyond what you can for many good reasons, but we have been as focus on this mission of the schools and especially public schools but all schools in preparing young people for citizenship. getting back to that, checker and i, a colleague of ours had a little piece of years ago where he went and looked on the big

school district websites, the biggest school district in the country. almost none of them mention citizenship in a mission statement. like, how did that happen? it's a little bit, it just reflects that we've got away from this notion we need to get back to it. >> cannot add one quick -- i'm sorry. i agree, we can't count on schools to fix all these things. it's concentric circles starting with parent moving its way up. other institutions have to help but one of the things i am very obsessed with these dates is a dangers of populism and nationalism in the sorts of things. one of the things that civics education does is it allows for just everyday citizens also political leaders who are responsible for the citizens to be just a bit more rooted, rooted in the facts, rooted in

the soil of reality. and when you live in a society like we do right now where it's really just all about competing narratives on television and the internet, that are designed to arouse anger more than enlightenment, that sort of stuff, whether it is qanon or racists on the right, our races on the left or whoever, when people are not equipped with the basic facts is it oh, my gosh, what i'm hearing here is yes, ,t becomes all the more easier to manipulate the people and to whip them up into an outrage state of mind. there's a wonderful essay by john courtney murray i think written in the early '60s where he says that the real threat at

the gates of the city racing america today isn't really the communists but it's the idiots. what he meant by that was he was using it yet in the original greek term, which met someone who was in school enough to be fit to behave in politics. someone who wasn't informed enough to have an opinion that mattered. and democratization of all of our politics, the democratization of our parties, the democratization for journalism, social media is letting the most persuasive idiots have widely outsized power in our society today. and that is legitimately dangers and it is a danger that we've had in the past but the technology was not on the side of idiots the way it is today. this i think makes all the more important to teach civics and just basic facts. >> as someone who runs schools,

while we obviously have a role to play, it is a very heavy burden to think that we have the sole role to play in enhancing civic education. the . the institutions through which young people learn, what it meant to be an american, community-based organization, their own family, eighth community, all of that we need a renewal. one thing that's interesting running schools, we talk about this idea of america as a self-governing free society. that assumes with individuals they who know how to self govern. this idea of rights and responsibilities, typically when we have this discussion it seems there's a lot of focus on entitlements and rights for young people but not a lot about responsibility. so what would this group want young people to understand about their responsibility to be an american? what does that look like? >> i will jump in and suggest that we might look to one of the

things that's part of the 1619 project as a point of departure. so there's a curriculum that was put together for the "new york times" by the pulitzer center. they are not related to the organization the issues the pulitzer prize. it's interesting when you look at the plans are part of this one of been called erasure poetry. imagine that you take the declaration, this is example to use, there are several other documents, what you do as a young person is blotted out the words that revealed then those words that are left your feelings about that document or that statement, okay? so jonah -- >> important words, you're feeling. >> right. this goes to your point about anti-proposal of what is it that private schools offer of the ones that are most prone to take this sort of thing? when we don't have that shared

reflection on what is the text of first? like you were saying, sarah. how can we offer critique of the? i think most high school students are ready to enter into that critique mode but first you have to spin the bulk of it on reflecting and understanding what is there before do anything like an erasure. so i think there's a way in which that reality-based education requires a confrontation, and it doesn't have to be boring. it can be really exciting. you can individually big debates and anybody that has taught, remember when i we teach slavery, we spent a lot of time on just trying to find out the question why is it wrong? that's that moral inquiry. and young people, teenagers, middle school students, even than once, i have two sons ages eight and ten, they love to enter into this debate anything they are capable of doing it and we robbed and if we don't invite them to come into these kinds of

the debate. >> i am codifying the prospect of 12-year-olds gracing, editing jefferson and madison and lincoln. >> that may be our reality. if these things are so outrageous, i mean, checker, you mentioned earlier, thank heavens the federal government is not imposing the creek and bullies of the proper role of federal or state oversight it school districts can just independently on top curricula that is so antithetical to the core value of the country? >> states can assert as much influence as they choose to in this come even so-called local controlled states. states decide what the standards and what's on the assessments and what of the graduation models. some states have a model curricula can some of which incidentally is pretty good.

they are almost never obligatory curricula that is to say, districts and schools choose whether they will use them or not, but they could be mandated, could have high quality statewide curriculum aligned with the high-quality state assessment. and then the challenge would be to prepare teachers and materials to appropriately successfully teach it. i think there's lots of opportunity here at the state level. let's leave the feds out of it for the time being. >> the response on that? >> i'm actually leery of state level curriculum. i mean, many moons ago i served on one iteration of new jersey's redrafting of its state social studies standards. the things that seemed important

to include even, where like pet, they were just as prone to the kinds of like pork belly finagling as in other political agenda, right? there was this statewide pretty rigorous scope and sequence of what people were supposed to do but that didn't mean it was good. and the fact that it existed prevented teachers who wanted to do good work and wanted to really engage their students with the past any meaningful biological sort of way from being able to do that because the was this market had happened to the scope and sequence. i'm leery of standardization in general. >> and i can do that for sure. fordham were checker and i work, we've been reviewing state standards for 20 years and all subjects but certain social status, most of them are terrible.

they are written by committee and so they come out, you know, mediocre at best. one thing we haven't talked about is what we might be able to short-circuit some of these debates and that's when kids are little. when we are taught to high school kids, of course all the issues around viewpoint diversity matter a lot, but from talking about, six, seven, eight year olds, i think most americans would agree with hey, let's just make sure to get some of the basics and you learn about our heroes, have an inclusive list of heroes and they learned about. and yet as bill bennett wrote in this chapter, we just simply on doing that. that most american elementary schools today do not teach in history and till at the soonest maybe fourth or fifth grade, if by then. and it's because of this notion that we are just going to use all the time we can for quote, reading coverage in. what does that look like?

it's boring, repetitive exercises about buying the main idea and tell us what that narrowed his point is. it's terrible and it turns out that not only is it boring, it also doesn't actually work in terms of teaching kids how to read. if you want to teach a kid had read you do need to teach a understand at the language with phonics and all that, and then you need to actually teach them stuff. history and geography, art, music and all the rest. that is a huge potential it seems to me is that it we can get our elementary schools teaching is to give any meaningful way, i can't that might look quote mostly patriotic or jonah would give us a better use of patriotic to use for that. and it would be broad consensus rather and get the basics, the basic narrative and some of the key people involved in this story of overcoming many of the ills and challenges with that.

i could put us in a much better place. and then once kids are older,, you don't have to we trod that grantor you can get into primary documents, you a lot more. by the way, when kids are little they're not cynical teenagers who think history is boring. the six of us actually like history. most teenagers hate it. they hate it because it is not been taught in a very inspiring way. so let's teach it to them when you want your stories of faraway times and places. and let's understand there are materials available for little kids, too. not just ap history for high school kids. there's the college foundation which is a wonderful job of editing kitchen of the things into language arts actually or joining them together. there's a wonderful video where little kids -- called liberty kids, that is a well taught basic course, civics course in

cartoon video form, over multiple hours that i've ever seen. so there's lots of stuff that can work for little kids. i'm sure david's organization and center has materials are young students. >> let's not forget field trips. to go back to my plea to remember playspace learning. most filters happen in the elementary years. in high school there's too much content we have to cover so we can take our kids to places where history happen and we can engage them with the past in a a way that is very meaningful and that will resonate for a long time, even if they forget the specifics of the facts. ..

to have that kind of important and vital engagement. when you ask parents if you want values taught to the younger kids in school, they will often recoil and say wait whose values? however if you ask them would you like responsibility for other virtues to be taught they say yes. without being too preachy, there is curriculum out of that store story basic can build the moral for young people. and it's the runway for future civic education. >> host: one thank you have all highlighted is the importance of teaching history, especially younger ages. i also wonder how important it is to start teaching the social norms by which young people understand what is to be an american.

mike, you mentioned the sequence and for those who aren't familiar with it it's pretty overwhelming data that if you finished just a high school degree, get full-time work, marriage, than children, 90% of those folks held that course of decisions in that order have ended up in the middle class or beyond that is extraordinary. but it seems that when conservatives have talked about social norms is taken as potentially racist or imposing middle-class values. shouldn't that be as important we are talking about civic education to talk about the social norms that have defined what it means to be an american? speech will jump in on this request. this is a source of great frustration for me, we've written a lot about this one of the main problems we have

in our society is that our elites won't preach what they practice. the divorce rate among the top, whatever dividing line you want to put out the 1%, 2% whatever, the divorce rate flattened out and basically corrected itself and the most part for 20 or 30 years ago for those people. turns out with this exact sequence that all of these things, delayed gratification, religious attendance, family integrity, these are things that make people successful. and they have the kind of social, moral, financial, economic capital that allows them to be successful. but there is this thing in our culture that says you are not allowed to tell other people how to live, even though it's

people who are poor or otherwise disadvantage to need that guidance more than anyone else, if you are rich you can afford your sins, you can afford your mistakes. it always thought about it, it's an old story now, but madonna who made her career with what i used to call. [inaudible] she gave an interview to some magazine where she said she was named supermom by people magazine. she said she had never changed a diaper because she has a staff of like over 200 people. she can preach all sorts of things about nontraditional values and afford whatever mistakes that she makes. but somebody down the socioeconomic ladder who thanks the way madonna thanks the world works is good enough for me.

they can't afford the kind of mistakes that she can make. this is a cross society, new class types that want to talk about society where we don't actually live in that does not have conflicts. there are more economic benefits to get at least equal to getting married as to going to college for most people. how often do we hear how vital it is you go to college versus how vital it is to get married? and one is a much more lasting source of happiness and it is not college. >> my wife would be happy for me to it say that i agree with you. >> were branching into another themes of the book. i think an important point to get on the virtual table here, is the expense to which character education in schools isn't modeling the behavior by adults in schools. the way kids learn how to

behave and the respect they have to other kids and adults of the people outside is by watching adults do it correctly. so that's actually one of the prices we are paying for the virtual environment right now. it's that young kids aren't in school seeing these models. they are in their homes seeing whatever models they have in their home. those may be fine but they're not seeing the other models that they might be seeing if they were in school. >> thank you all, i am excited now to have two questions from our audience of which we have many, this is very exciting. todd is a social studies teacher at berryhill high school. he is a veteran in high school social studies he says he's looking for ways to include character virtual development is curriculum. what character, traits, civic virtues or values are key

american values and virtues? what are those key five or ten, or whatever number of values that need to be taught to high school students? >> you can start with ben franklin's list in his autobiography. >> give us a little sarah. >> you have to be humble, industrious, somebody help me out, franklin is not my favorite founder. [laughter] but franklin has -- because of when he's writing the autobiography and because of who is writing it for, his son, and he is writing it after america has already run pungent won the war. dally's thinking about how we bring along a generation of genuine republican citizens, that list as he is remembering what he tried to train himself to do as a young person, is really modeled at that exact question.

what does it take to be a virtuous republican? so there's also a pretty good list in the old boy scout oath as i remember it from my adolescence. i recall trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. >> well done. >> very impressive. >> amy is a professor at law school a few years ago had the audacity to lay out social norms and she would heavily attacked for even ushering -- what is it about the ees which you can recite the boy scout oath of sarah can talk about ben franklin? what is it that seems so obvious in the past now that's in the source of such conflict? >> host: i think there is a thing we have lost to suggest

that virtue really does have something very much to do with public things. that's in part what franklin was getting at. that project that sarah discuss was hatched when he was in his 20s and he realized he was the kind of guy that always wanted to win the argument. so he pulled this list of a dozen virtues and asked a friend of his if you look at this, would you suggest i work on anything else? because of what he wanted to do is embark on a project called moral perfection. a friend, quaker said you're kind of arrogant why don't you try humility? and franklin, to his credit took him up on that. and he tried to go through and put that into action. and what he did was work on a virtue each week until he got it right. any realize humility was really the hardest one on that list. i think there is an element here that's very important and teachers know this. there is a skill building

quality to the norms we are talking about. often times they have tried to put those into something called action civics. i don't think it's a very good fit. because ultimately what you're doing is before you have that content you are running kids out into projects that very often have an almost activist tenor. however, i do think conservatives need to become more open to the idea that skill building in schools, and beyond school is vital. and it does not have to be the action equals activist brittany mainly have to think about content and norms and content principles ultimately that we are imparting to young people, they are doing things to put these into action is a good thing and a well constructed can be part of our formal curriculum. >> one quick point, about

virtue not just for individual character, but the character of the american people. i am actually someone who believes in a americans exceptionalism is understood meaning it's not waving a foam finger saying we are number one it's just we are just different because we did not have a futile past there's all sorts of different things about america. some were really good somewhere really bad. we were more violent than other countries. one of the really good things as we are also more self-sufficient. there is a bit and alexis de tocqueville he says if a cart is overturned on a bridge, everyone stands around waiting for the constable to come and take control the situation. but the americans they just all get together they pick up the cart they move it out of the road. i think teaching a little bit of that is really important in part because at least among elites kids one organ a grope and the opinion makers and

influencers, i'm not going to get all of johnson high stuff but that meritocracy is creating -- a lot of kids are good at taking tests are good at jumping through the hoops that they are supposed to do to get their peace of cheese at the end of the maze that they are fragile. they get out of the education system and they are looking for someone to ask permission to do the next thing. i think that is a long-term problem for the american character the american people that if you've grown up your whole life we've always had a third party authority figure to adjudicate any personal conflict and you just know how to follow instructions really well, something really important about america will be lost. >> jonah i also think that kids are deterred from thinking there are absolute truths, right?

so franklin adds humility but in the book he says to be humble like socrates and jesus so neither of those are wishy-washy men they were not like my truth is for me your truth is for you, they're like no socrates is a gas light of ethics he is a true understanding of philosophy and he is annoying people with it. it is not humility in the sense of everyone's truth is equally valid it's also being able to come to some understanding of truth and make a commitment to it and to engage in the civic dialogue will still standing your own ground and say no others are right and a wrong here. >> absolutely. we have another question from timothy simpson from morehead state university. what role do teacher education programs play in creating

civic illiteracy. and how can teacher education, especially social studies be reformed to contribute to civic literacy david you may have some and sarah think you may have some thoughts here. >> it's a big question and a good one. think one of the main things that happens. while there has been some modest steps taken in the last decade to try to begin to address this, one of the biggest problems is in training our teachers to be, there's so much emphasis in the teachers colleges that content mastery is left behind all too often. i think that is the major things that needs to be corrected. him by the way it gives teachers the greatest confidence with her entering the classroom. we are seeing in the social studies arena even greater teacher attrition then it's on the other other fields where

attrition is already skyhigh. and it's a pretty intimidating thing for one if you haven't done it, to try to get up in front of a bunch of people even if they are young, and talk about things that you don't know anything we talk a lot about critical thinking need to have said something about which you are going to think critically. think that's the major reform we see in our teacher colleges. >> the seminal truth about teaching is you can't teach something unless you know it. if you haven't learned it probably can't teach it. >> challenge of course is what so many people are learning in college today when it comes to history is exactly what we have been discussing. it's history that may not be so much based in truth but it's was social justice ideals and all the rest. i am not optimistic about putting many eggs in the reform basket people been

trying for hundred years and failing. frankly when your talk about social studies teachers they're not spinning as much time in school and elementary school's teachers are they just don't need that many methods classes and the like you need to history degree. i would come back to this notice about curriculum is only to push us in a more positive direction. what is it we want students to actually be able to do? think about student work we think a well educated american appropriators should be able to answer? you can look at this in even a few notches below that what kind of writing what basic knowledge skills what about

teachers who can get another work out of kids they can complete those kind of assignments effectively. as a parent right now going to his teaching experience during this emergency has been completely stripped out of most instruction, there's very little teacher instruction my kids are seeing anymore, it's basically now just the assignment. beginning of the week here are the assignments giving to work their way through. and yet it feels stripped down but at the end of the day that is what education is it is the work we expect students to do. and so i think we stay focused on that. then we might be able to get to more constructive place. that gets into some as curricular issues and they were able to wing it as a 22-year-old into the best you

can. that is not a strategy that's going to get us very far in my mind. >> we have a question from serena who is a spanish interpreter and prince william county. she is asking how do we educate children whose parents do not care or do not encourage education? as an educator i might think it's not necessarily parents don't care, is just they may just assume the school has got this covered. but with the pandemic a lot of parents have got a lot more insight to what their kids are actually doing. i don't think there is a happy. how do we educate kids whose parents may not be as engaged as a whole host of reasons. some parents may not be skillful navigators they may not be good home instructors because they lack personal

familiarity with what they're supposed to learn. many are distracted by other kids in duties and obligations what is the meaning of school choice for kids who basically don't have parents? there are in foster care and things like that. the recommendation there is many schools for some kids to be much more relevant need to stay a lot of than recent weights as possible we have to have parents learn to be more engaged once they realize that's expected of them. the school is not a repair shop.

since getting parents up to speed on how they help their children. >> extraordinary amounts. parents very much appreciate the role that we are playing at school to provide resources to parents. again they have much more visibility into the work and the fact they're playing a role of teacher. think there's a great opportunity here. serena i think more would love to be more engages may not be that they don't care but they may not have the tools for being more actively engaged. >> i would like to say thank you to serena for the work you are doing and just echo what you just said, ian. i believe there is a role for parents were often times whether it's in this time when it's hard to figure out exactly what your kids are studying, there is a portal. how do you get on it? time concerns? all of these things.

even pre-covid, maybe an exercise in which the child is asking their parents a question or their grandparent or their guardian. what do you think were going through now? get the proverbial dinnertable conversations going. even if they are not over the dinner table. we work with thousands of educators who are working with students in the el l communities and have a resource called being an american. it's designed to boil down those ideas for little learners what are those basic things that each american should know. i think what we need is more of a dialogue going forward. i hope a thing that can come out of covid is more of that interchange were parents are supporting even if it is in modest steps, the hard work that's happening in the classrooms and vice versa.

the teachers are recognizing it's not easy for a lot of parents to be totally involved in their kids academic lives. so just one more thing look curating and editing about your kids kids are watching when they are not at school could also go a long ways. have them watch liberties kids have them watch the crash course on history. as a lot of wonderful things that will educate them extremely well as long as someone is choosing it for them rather less appealing things or they are very appealing but they should not be available to them. >> good reminder of parental supervision priced event can i give a shout out to schoolhouse rock? >> yes jack black. >> my daughter when she was

much younger she had a nostalgia thing because she's my daughter she liked to hear about the things i watch when i was a kid that kind of stuff i told about schoolhouse rock. in my whole family we end up re- watching all of them. some of them it's amazing how patriotic some of them are. and funny and well done they are. they are a great gateway for little kids. that's my push for pers. >> not the analogy i necessarily want to use. [laughter] adam who was actually one of the authors in the book would like to hear more comments about educating american adults. enough of these kindergarten through 12th grade kids what about college, postcollege, more americans to be literate? >> it's a great point that many americans clearly don't love history because it's one of the most popular forms of books that people still buy.

we've got these celebrity authors many are not academic historians who sell millions of books and people love that. there's clearly a demand out there for history. i would also say, talk what some of the technology things on the internet ancestry.com is a pretty cool way into history about a lot of families today. looking at documents for many generations you can do as kids and adults and rekindle that love for history. there are some ideas on history i will leave it to others to talk about the civics. >> at the philanthropy roundtable should come up with a list. >> i think this is an opportunity where if we

imagine but rethinking what school looks like and how much of our tax dollars go to public schools. maybe if people had more control over expendable income they would spend more of it at local history sites, right? or maybe we could redirect some of the tax dollars from schools to local history sites. there are ways we could encourage engagement in the community with history, not just in the atmosphere of things that are published or packaged and developed by scholars but actually getting people out into the places that are in their own backyard. >> i think civics has been defined too often by boring charts and there's a reason why a lot of adults are not as engaged in the civic side as they might be with david mccullough and others with

manifestations of popular history. families can go on together that we need to do a better job of very practical questions it's a strength thing to see how much a constitutional education becomes a realm of experts. you see that the way our political actors look at it. as more interchange between policy and constituents will of the lawyers take care of that those questions about the law and the constitution. and i think bring it to a level this very conversational about current events ways to get beyond the clinical horserace to what are the ideas that are at stake? there are organizations out there doing it and i've certainly seen deep engagement by families and by adults. >> well, amazingly were coming to the end of our time.

and so i want to thank all these incredible panelists. i want to give each of you 30 seconds to a minute to answer the question, what is the call to action? if you purchase how to educate in america just watch this webinar and are inspired, what is that you would like someone to do, right now to revitalize civic education? what would you like us to do? >> first of all to act locally. if you are a parent or a citizen show up at your local school board meeting and ask them. what tech are you using for your history curriculum? what is that look like and are we doing a good job teaching history in a balanced way? if you're an educator, same questions in the terms of the civic values. does her own school live up to those values? are we walking the talk? course with kids and teenagers are going to follow as our example not her lectures.

>> run for local school board. seriously the election for local school board actually look into the views of candidates for election to local school boards. educate your own children some of the ways we talked about on this show at this session. and then take them to columbia williamsburg once were allowed outdoors and mount rushmore and gettysburg. jonah? >> i was going to basically do that think locally but mike just took it. i do believe the fight for liberty the fight for all good things begins in your own backyard. i think to make people want to outsource to national movements and experts rather than doing the basics that's close to home.

but since that is already covered, go on a road trip when this is over. go on a road trip and only your kids have devices for the drive. go to a couple interesting historical places. talk about them. don't let them look at their devices on the drive back is you're talking about them. that would do a lot. >> david and sarah, thank you we have one more minute left. >> i would just say read more. find something in history that is of interest you and read about it and try to find primary sources that go along with it and get your kids to read them with you, talk about them talk with them with your neighbors, don't get into that echo chamber of your own head. and david? >> seek out views that are different from your own. i've often wondered what it would be for those who are

coming to this country to the naturalization process to be adopted so to speak by those who are in their community. it's actions like that kind of the local thinking they're going to build turn this around. >> thank you all five were to answer that question i would say went to ensure our kids to understand the rights and responsibilities of what it means to be an american and affords them the opportunity to be agents of their own destiny. thank you everyone this has been fantastic. we've come to the end, please consider purchasing how to educate an american we look forward to the follow-up and doing great things for kids. >> book tv continues down on cspan2. television for serious readers. >> hello and